Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

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Jim_Alaska
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Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Jim_Alaska » Thu May 21, 2020 11:31 pm

You will find anything they have done recently in this link. There is also an informative video of verbal information.

https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/water_is ... wrapp.html


Same old stuff as we fought n Oregon in 2004. The allow public comments asa "show". They have already decided what they will do and only allow comments because the law says they have to. The law doesn't say they have to make decisions based o our comments, or even consider them in their decision making.

Have fun reading.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by chickenlip_willie » Fri May 22, 2020 8:57 pm

These California Water Board regulations are not based on facts or science !! California is trying to destroy small scale gold mining completely !! In my opinion this is nothing more than a huge power grab and another way to increase revenue !! Now the fight will really heat up !!
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Jim_Alaska » Fri May 22, 2020 10:12 pm

But in the long run it will make no difference Jim. They will implement it just as they want. I went through this very same process with Oregon ODEQ in 2004-2005.

They use the same old agency buzz words and phrases and we use the same old arguments. Our arguments are based in science, but it just doesn't matter because they have and use their own definitions, which are not the same definitions as our science defines them.

Oregon still suffers under the same permitting process that we are just starting to go through. Based on my front line experience with this in both Alaska and Oregon I can predict that we won't be able to change anything they want to implement.....what you see is what you get.

Although they will charge outrageous prices, it is really not about money. Money is only one of their tools to discourage use from buying the permit. This is all about control and getting mining shut down any way possible. The enviro-whacko are not only behind all of this, but they actually do it through a back door process that we never know about until they have already influenced the agency.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Jim_Alaska » Fri May 22, 2020 11:06 pm

This is an afterthought, but I thought I would post it. I'll give you a short version and then a longer one to give an example. The short version is simply this: It is not only alright, but acceptable and lawful to agency officials to lie.

Longer version: Back in 2004-2005 when we miners were fighting this NPDES permitting with ODEQ, we had many meetings with ODEQ. Some of them went well for us and we were able to discredit the agency decisions and proposed regulations. We used both good science and reason to show that these people trying to regulate us actually knew nothing about dredging at all, therefore they could not see what was reasonable or what was unreasonable.

One classic example of the agencies wanting to take advantage of this NPDES process to implement their own bias rule I will recount.

We presented evidence from Federal EPA own suction dredge studies that conclusively show that operating a suction dredge with a nozzle intake of four inches or less had "de-minimus" effects on water quality and fish. A "de-minimus" result in a scientific study simply means that the activity has no measurable effect.

When the agency was presented with their own study, they were then forced to admit that the affects that they were trying to regulate would be included if a dredger used a dredge with a nozzle size of four inches or less. Sooo,
To pacify us miners, the agency said that they would exempt dredges four inch or smaller from NPDES permitting. Sounds like we won that round huh?

Nope, it was simply a tool to pacify miners and get them to stop fighting the agency and they had no intention of abiding by it. When they issued the actual permit there was no exemption for four inch dredges, and this with no warning what-so-ever. They quite simply lied with impunity. This was done in front of Oregon legislators at the State Capitol in Salem, so even legislators were lied to. Then Senator Doug Whitsett was one of the legislators, he told me after the meeting that he was astounded and could not believe that the agency had done that.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by chickenlip_willie » Fri May 22, 2020 11:52 pm

Jim Foley, ... this fight will go on long after you and I are dead and gone. I assume all of this has been documented and in stone ? This needs to be challenged and fought !! Also , I will not except these regulations as a done deal. Sorry but I do not have the personality to role over and play dead.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Jim_Alaska » Sat May 23, 2020 3:19 pm

Jim my friend, I did not write what I wrote to discourage anyone. It was written in the hope that people that have not been a part of this process before, or involved in the previous battles would not be "blind-sided" in their efforts to fight against unjust regulations. Nothing is more discouraging than to formulate what you think are good arguments and good science and law, only to find out that others before you have done it before you and failed. Sure, the evidence is in the record, but in the end nothing was changed.

Please understand that I too am a fighter and not at all prone to "roll over and play dead". I do admit to some degree of "burn out" after fighting this battle on three fronts for the last fifteen years. In the past I spent thousands of my own dollars in travel, lodging and food in the fight for just mining regulations. At age 77 and in bad health I had to just determine to step back a bit, cut my involvement from the scope it used to be and just draw back to doing what I can on a personal scale and supporting those willing to fight.

When I gave the example of agency staff outright lying to get what they want it was to help someone else who may not have experienced this to avoid the same situation, thinking that they had succeeded, when it was in reality a ploy on the agency part.

As far as "accepting these regulations as a done deal" is concerned; it really is a done deal, the water board regulations have been formulated and actually approved and adopted by Waterboards. Opportunity to comment is over with and no further comment sessions are planned by the agency.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the only other option miners have is litigation. As you yourself have seen and been a part of in fundraising, litigation is extremely expensive and beyond the means of most single miners. It takes a concentrated effort on the part of mining organizations and collective groups of miners to instigate a law suit against an agency. They have the deep pockets as well as the historical experience to fight us all the way to the Supreme Court.

So, it remains to be seen just how anyone that cannot accept these new regulations would go about challenging them. Make no mistake here, I am not just being negative, but only trying to show historical reality that is already "water under the bridge". I stand ready to support any that are willing to carry on the fight to the best of my ability. Right now the best of my ability is information, law, and sound science. Anyone needing this kind of information is welcome to ask, I have plenty of it.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by gshirey » Sat May 23, 2020 7:12 pm

Does the new rules allow motorized equipment in the rivers?
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Jim_Alaska » Sun May 24, 2020 1:10 am

gshirey wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:12 pm
Does the new rules allow motorized equipment in the rivers?
I don't know Gerald, I have not read the whole thing. I guess you will just have to read it.
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Re: Water Boards Adopted Permit Scheme

Post by Wiggler » Tue May 26, 2020 6:24 pm

Even though it appears that motorized dredging will "eventually " become legal ....a few different agencies have designated M A N Y rivers and streams off limits. It happens to be rivers and streams that are gold bearing and worthwhile to mine. Yes , this struggle is being fought on many levels . Getting motorized equipment legalized is just one hurdle. Reopening gold bearing waterways is another. Getting the expense of the eventual permit down is yet another !!
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